Comments on: GSM Palm Pre on the horizon http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/ Software Engineer - Author - Open Source Enthusiast Fri, 30 Jul 2010 05:26:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.12-alpha by: Jeroen http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121749 Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:04:37 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121749 I have been going through the list of closed components in the Fremantle SDK (http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/eula/index.php) and I have had a look the kernel source for the N900 (http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/k/kernel/). In the nokia-binaries repository, you can see that closed source binaries are required for the radio transmitter, OpenGLES acceleration, Nokia's proprietary GUI components, GPS and battery charging. The kernel source seems to include open source drivers for pretty much everything else (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, I personnaly don't care too much about the first three. The GPS and battery charging are more unfortunate, but if those are the only packages required to get for example Debian running on the N900, I can live with that. If you choose the Pre, you'll also have to make some compromises (it's using the same PowerVR SGX530 and you have to download closed source non-redistributable firmware for the wifi module). I have been going through the list of closed components in the Fremantle SDK (http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/eula/index.php) and I have had a look the kernel source for the N900 (http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/k/kernel/).
In the nokia-binaries repository, you can see that closed source binaries are required for the radio transmitter, OpenGLES acceleration, Nokia’s proprietary GUI components, GPS and battery charging. The kernel source seems to include open source drivers for pretty much everything else (correct me if I’m wrong).
Now, I personnaly don’t care too much about the first three. The GPS and battery charging are more unfortunate, but if those are the only packages required to get for example Debian running on the N900, I can live with that.
If you choose the Pre, you’ll also have to make some compromises (it’s using the same PowerVR SGX530 and you have to download closed source non-redistributable firmware for the wifi module).

]]> by: Peter Robinson http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121706 Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:03:03 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121706 What about the Glofish E-TEN devices which have very similar guts to the Openmoko phones. Or the Samung Omnia? Harald Welte has done some research into both of those http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/04/15/#20090415-samsung_omnia and it seems that Samsung is improving in its upstream Linux support. What about the Glofish E-TEN devices which have very similar guts to the Openmoko phones. Or the Samung Omnia? Harald Welte has done some research into both of those http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/04/15/#20090415-samsung_omnia and it seems that Samsung is improving in its upstream Linux support.

]]> by: Rene Wagner http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121690 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:56:05 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121690 Hey Mickey, an exciting challenge indeed. Too bad I'm swamped with other stuff... @Jeroen: You're right when you point out that only the actual release of the production device will bring certainty. However, the blog comment you're referring to doesn't say anything at all about the openness of the device. The only meaning of the 0 in /proc/sys/kernel/tainted is that no kernel modules are loaded with a license that's not the GPL or compatible with it and that no other "tainting" conditions are met (see Documentation/sysctl/kernel.txt for details). It is common practice to mark modules as MODULE_LICENCE("GPL") regardless of the actual license situation or source code availability. The cx3110x driver shipped with the Nokia 770 was marked as GPL but source code was only provided years later (https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/). Secondly, the assumption that a device with /proc/sys/kernel/tainted == 0 must be open is also problematic. Previous Nokia internet tablets shipped with an array of proprietary binary-only userspace applications responsible for crucial functionality such as battery charging. Without these the device can't be used properly. With the N900 the equally problematic initfs (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3373) will fortunately be gone. The DSME component has also been open sourced. A number of people (Mickey included) have asked for clarification on the other user space bits and kernel drivers via http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lovers-here-comes-maemo-5/#comments and unfortunately the response boiled down to "Nokia's policy of keeping some selected components closed source to gain competitive advantage hasn't changed". As for the Pre, the sd8xxx driver is open source (although it requires proprietary firmware) and available under the GPL. It might be worth checking with Palm why it's not on their open source packages site. @Pavel: As much as I like the Dream, don't you think it's approaching its EOL? By cell phone standards it's rather ancient. Cheers, Rene Hey Mickey, an exciting challenge indeed. Too bad I’m swamped with other stuff…

@Jeroen: You’re right when you point out that only the actual release of the production device will bring certainty. However, the blog comment you’re referring to doesn’t say anything at all about the openness of the device.

The only meaning of the 0 in /proc/sys/kernel/tainted is that no kernel modules are loaded with a license that’s not the GPL or compatible with it and that no other “tainting” conditions are met (see Documentation/sysctl/kernel.txt for details). It is common practice to mark modules as MODULE_LICENCE(”GPL”) regardless of the actual license situation or source code availability. The cx3110x driver shipped with the Nokia 770 was marked as GPL but source code was only provided years later (https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/).

Secondly, the assumption that a device with /proc/sys/kernel/tainted == 0 must be open is also problematic. Previous Nokia internet tablets shipped with an array of proprietary binary-only userspace applications responsible for crucial functionality such as battery charging. Without these the device can’t be used properly.

With the N900 the equally problematic initfs (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3373) will fortunately be gone. The DSME component has also been open sourced. A number of people (Mickey included) have asked for clarification on the other user space bits and kernel drivers via http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/software-freedom-lovers-here-comes-maemo-5/#comments and unfortunately the response boiled down to “Nokia’s policy of keeping some selected components closed source to gain competitive advantage hasn’t changed”.

As for the Pre, the sd8xxx driver is open source (although it requires proprietary firmware) and available under the GPL. It might be worth checking with Palm why it’s not on their open source packages site.

@Pavel: As much as I like the Dream, don’t you think it’s approaching its EOL? By cell phone standards it’s rather ancient.

Cheers,

Rene

]]> by: Pavel Machek http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121688 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:27:52 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121688 I actually believe HTC Dream is way better choice... Don't wait for GSM Palm Pre mickeyl suggests to wait for Palm Pre for openmoko-style hacking. Well, I don't quite agree. HTC Dream (and similar) devices are already being sold for close to a year or so, and no, I don't think they are outdated. Kernel drivers are huge due to "interesting" architecture, but they are GPLed and getting them merged should be just simple matter of programming. (Please help :-) And we even have friendly (but severely overloaded) Google people to talk to... I actually believe HTC Dream is way better choice…

Don’t wait for GSM Palm Pre
mickeyl suggests to wait for Palm Pre for openmoko-style hacking. Well, I don’t quite agree.

HTC Dream (and similar) devices are already being sold for close to a year or so, and no, I don’t think they are outdated. Kernel drivers are huge due to “interesting” architecture, but they are GPLed and getting them merged should be just simple matter of programming. (Please help :-) And we even have friendly (but severely overloaded) Google people to talk to…

]]> by: Jeroen http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121684 Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:47:56 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121684 How can you make claims about the openness about a device (the N900) that has not been released yet? From the WebOS Internals wiki on compiling a custom kernel: "Technically, we should be copying over our custom-compiled kernel modules here, but the Pre seems to have some closed source modules that we can't build ourselves, particularly the Marvell sd8xxx wi-fi driver." (http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Custom_Kernels) From one of the comments on Rui's blog, it seems the N900 is running an untainted kernel and according to the Mer devs, Nokia will be distributing the necessary binary blobs to N900 owners. I don't see how that is any better or worse than the Pre. How can you make claims about the openness about a device (the N900) that has not been released yet?
From the WebOS Internals wiki on compiling a custom kernel:
“Technically, we should be copying over our custom-compiled kernel modules here, but the Pre seems to have some closed source modules that we can’t build ourselves, particularly the Marvell sd8xxx wi-fi driver.”
(http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/Custom_Kernels)

From one of the comments on Rui’s blog, it seems the N900 is running an untainted kernel and according to the Mer devs, Nokia will be distributing the necessary binary blobs to N900 owners. I don’t see how that is any better or worse than the Pre.

]]> by: Jack http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121649 Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:43:26 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121649 What about vala porting? fso.org hasn't been updated for ages so it's even unclear what do you actually plan to port - python implementation? vala? What about vala porting?
fso.org hasn’t been updated for ages so it’s even unclear what do you actually plan to port - python implementation? vala?

]]> by: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121640 Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:58:18 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121640 I don't know about the Pre yet, but Nokia N900 is *not* an open phone. I wouldn't mind so much if it was only some proprietary apps. The most important parts are dependent of proprietary drivers you can't live without. Besides, Nokia is a company that is doing harm to the community by lobbying for software patents in Europe. Until I see a mentality change, it's just business as usual, and GNU/Linux is chosen as a technically better platform on which they base more proprietary phones. I wrote a bit about it in my blog, at http://blog.1407.org/2009/09/01/nokias-free-software-bullshit-and-insults-in-maemo/ I don’t know about the Pre yet, but Nokia N900 is *not* an open phone.

I wouldn’t mind so much if it was only some proprietary apps. The most important parts are dependent of proprietary drivers you can’t live without.

Besides, Nokia is a company that is doing harm to the community by lobbying for software patents in Europe.

Until I see a mentality change, it’s just business as usual, and GNU/Linux is chosen as a technically better platform on which they base more proprietary phones.

I wrote a bit about it in my blog, at http://blog.1407.org/2009/09/01/nokias-free-software-bullshit-and-insults-in-maemo/

]]> by: Ortwin http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121638 Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:37:00 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121638 I have basically got the same question: What is the difference in openness between Pre and N900? I'm trying to decide which of the two I'm going to get... I have basically got the same question: What is the difference in openness between Pre and N900? I’m trying to decide which of the two I’m going to get…

]]> by: Christopher Webber http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121636 Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:25:16 +0000 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2009/09/25/gsm-palm-pre-on-the-horizon/#comment-121636 I just preordered an n900 particularly because I thought it *did* look like the most open phone of this generation out there. I'd be interested in hearing why the palm pre in particular was chosen, and if you think that n900 will be possible to port to. ☮, -cwebb I just preordered an n900 particularly because I thought it *did* look like the most open phone of this generation out there. I’d be interested in hearing why the palm pre in particular was chosen, and if you think that n900 will be possible to port to.

☮,
-cwebb

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